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	<title>Comments on: The Argument from Design</title>
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	<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on work and life from particle physicists from around the world.</description>
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		<title>By: Gavin Flower</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-65735</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Flower</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-65735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Who created the Creator?

Postulating a Creator just complicates things unnecessarily.

We implicitly assume that the Universe had a beginning, then we ask what happened before! So we want to keep our cake &amp; also to eat it. We want a definite starting point, we don&#039;t like infinities...

Possibly the Universe is some sort of multidimensional sphere - so asking how it started is a sensible as asking what is South of the South Pole, which is a meaningful sounding question that in this context is meaningless!

Claiming that God did it, leads to the question where did God come from, if the answer is that God always existed, then one could also say that the Universe has always existed in some form (Some string theories suggest that the Big Bang was simply a phase change). So insisting on a Creator God, simply complicates things without providing a useful answer. Besides which, no useful explanation is forthcoming on how such a God could create the Universe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who created the Creator?</p>
<p>Postulating a Creator just complicates things unnecessarily.</p>
<p>We implicitly assume that the Universe had a beginning, then we ask what happened before! So we want to keep our cake &amp; also to eat it. We want a definite starting point, we don&#8217;t like infinities&#8230;</p>
<p>Possibly the Universe is some sort of multidimensional sphere &#8211; so asking how it started is a sensible as asking what is South of the South Pole, which is a meaningful sounding question that in this context is meaningless!</p>
<p>Claiming that God did it, leads to the question where did God come from, if the answer is that God always existed, then one could also say that the Universe has always existed in some form (Some string theories suggest that the Big Bang was simply a phase change). So insisting on a Creator God, simply complicates things without providing a useful answer. Besides which, no useful explanation is forthcoming on how such a God could create the Universe.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Al</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-65229</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-65229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Google Images:  &quot;Belousov-Zhabotinsky&quot;  11,600 images
Conway&#039;s &quot;Game of Life,&quot; Stephen Wolfram&#039;s cellular automata, Mandelbrot&#039;s set and fractal generators, wavelet summations, snowflakes; Miller, Urey, Stanley, Ponnamperuma and abiogenesis

There is nothing to know.  Given sufficient complexity for positive feedback plus energy to run the system, it merely happens.  A shaken bag of watch parts does not make watches.  Mix a ketone or aldehyde, an amine, an isocyanide, and a carboxylic acid to get a marvelously complex bis-amide from the Ugi reaction, within minutes.  Starting materials to product, the atom count difference is one molecule of water,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ugi_Reaction_Scheme.png

&quot;A single failed reaction is a setback.  A million failed reactions are a combinatorial library.&quot; Managers cannot manage discovery, they can only manage to end it (Hell&#039;s Bells Laboratory to Lucent Technologies to nothing).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Google Images:  &#8220;Belousov-Zhabotinsky&#8221;  11,600 images<br />
Conway&#8217;s &#8220;Game of Life,&#8221; Stephen Wolfram&#8217;s cellular automata, Mandelbrot&#8217;s set and fractal generators, wavelet summations, snowflakes; Miller, Urey, Stanley, Ponnamperuma and abiogenesis</p>
<p>There is nothing to know.  Given sufficient complexity for positive feedback plus energy to run the system, it merely happens.  A shaken bag of watch parts does not make watches.  Mix a ketone or aldehyde, an amine, an isocyanide, and a carboxylic acid to get a marvelously complex bis-amide from the Ugi reaction, within minutes.  Starting materials to product, the atom count difference is one molecule of water,</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ugi_Reaction_Scheme.png" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ugi_Reaction_Scheme.png</a></p>
<p>&#8220;A single failed reaction is a setback.  A million failed reactions are a combinatorial library.&#8221; Managers cannot manage discovery, they can only manage to end it (Hell&#8217;s Bells Laboratory to Lucent Technologies to nothing).</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-64844</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-64844</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doug, while I agree with you that the leap from natural designers to the Intelligent Designer is immeasurably large (indeed, that it is a clear logical fallacy), there are a great many people who do not agree with us. The leap from functional designed objects that originate with an intelligent designer (a person) to functional, apparently-designed objects that come about through some accident of circumstances is, for them, the big leap.

It has long seemed to me that the Creationists and IDers that I have encountered classify objects into &quot;designed with purpose&quot; (objects that we know from direct experience are designed by people), &quot;looks designed with purpose&quot; and &quot;random assortment, possibly without purpose.&quot; From this starting point, the leap to natural laws producing apparently designed and purposeful objects seems immeasurably large; it&#039;s much simpler to suppose an Intelligence behind the design.

This becomes important if we begin to think about how to convince a wider audience of the beauty and logic of scientific theories.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug, while I agree with you that the leap from natural designers to the Intelligent Designer is immeasurably large (indeed, that it is a clear logical fallacy), there are a great many people who do not agree with us. The leap from functional designed objects that originate with an intelligent designer (a person) to functional, apparently-designed objects that come about through some accident of circumstances is, for them, the big leap.</p>
<p>It has long seemed to me that the Creationists and IDers that I have encountered classify objects into &#8220;designed with purpose&#8221; (objects that we know from direct experience are designed by people), &#8220;looks designed with purpose&#8221; and &#8220;random assortment, possibly without purpose.&#8221; From this starting point, the leap to natural laws producing apparently designed and purposeful objects seems immeasurably large; it&#8217;s much simpler to suppose an Intelligence behind the design.</p>
<p>This becomes important if we begin to think about how to convince a wider audience of the beauty and logic of scientific theories.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Cooper</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-64750</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Cooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 03:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-64750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An alternative to making predictions is to declare the opposition in default for failure of postdiction (which actually seems to be the preferred strategy of creationists). &quot;Being able to describe past observations is just the price to play the game, and with sufficient ingenuity, can usually be done.&quot; Yes, and I am pretty sure that natural selection from random variations can in fact do the job. But given the effectively infinite variety of life, the task of explaining all past observations will never be done. When you have explained the eye that sees, then there&#039;s the eye on the peacock&#039;s tail, and after that the I of conscious experience, and then who knows what. If you don&#039;t want to appeal to magic then the price of this game will never have been paid in full. But then of course finding the price of admission becomes a game in itself, and we should thank those of little ingenuity whenever they come up with interesting puzzles for us to solve. (Yes, we have usually thought of whatever they suggest long ago, but we should still thank them out of politeness - and then ask them to go out and find us more challenging ones)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An alternative to making predictions is to declare the opposition in default for failure of postdiction (which actually seems to be the preferred strategy of creationists). &#8220;Being able to describe past observations is just the price to play the game, and with sufficient ingenuity, can usually be done.&#8221; Yes, and I am pretty sure that natural selection from random variations can in fact do the job. But given the effectively infinite variety of life, the task of explaining all past observations will never be done. When you have explained the eye that sees, then there&#8217;s the eye on the peacock&#8217;s tail, and after that the I of conscious experience, and then who knows what. If you don&#8217;t want to appeal to magic then the price of this game will never have been paid in full. But then of course finding the price of admission becomes a game in itself, and we should thank those of little ingenuity whenever they come up with interesting puzzles for us to solve. (Yes, we have usually thought of whatever they suggest long ago, but we should still thank them out of politeness &#8211; and then ask them to go out and find us more challenging ones)</p>
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		<title>By: Byron</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-64747</link>
		<dc:creator>Byron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 03:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-64747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the end, the question is: Does the assumption of an intelligent designer lead to any testable predictions? If not, then it is of no interest or use.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the end, the question is: Does the assumption of an intelligent designer lead to any testable predictions? If not, then it is of no interest or use.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-64675</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 18:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-64675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom, we most certainly do not only have direct experience for the &quot;designed&quot; class of objects, and the leap from the known natural designers to a completely unknown, unevidenced, and supernatural God is indeed an immeasurably large one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, we most certainly do not only have direct experience for the &#8220;designed&#8221; class of objects, and the leap from the known natural designers to a completely unknown, unevidenced, and supernatural God is indeed an immeasurably large one.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-64636</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 11:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-64636</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If objects like watches and eyes are functional and arranged in such a way as to appear designed, then is it really more parsimonious to suppose that there are an arbitrary number of classes of functional objects—designed, evolved, etc.—than that there is only one class of functional object—designed—especially when we only know from direct experience that a single class (designed) exists?

Having a single class of functional object suffers from the need to postulate an intelligent designer of which we have no direct knowledge, but it&#039;s a much shorter leap of intuition from all the intelligent designers that we do know to one that we don&#039;t than from the ones we know to a set of natural laws that accidentally create functional objects that look designed.

My point is not an attempt to convince you that intelligent design is correct—far from it. However, I think that Okham&#039;s Razor only really comes down on the scientific explanation when you have a good grasp of the elegance and inevitability of natural law. This usually requires a mix of predisposition and extensive study of natural phenomena. In other words, an appeal to parsimony will work on scientists, but not on those who are experientially far from the scientific paradigm.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If objects like watches and eyes are functional and arranged in such a way as to appear designed, then is it really more parsimonious to suppose that there are an arbitrary number of classes of functional objects—designed, evolved, etc.—than that there is only one class of functional object—designed—especially when we only know from direct experience that a single class (designed) exists?</p>
<p>Having a single class of functional object suffers from the need to postulate an intelligent designer of which we have no direct knowledge, but it&#8217;s a much shorter leap of intuition from all the intelligent designers that we do know to one that we don&#8217;t than from the ones we know to a set of natural laws that accidentally create functional objects that look designed.</p>
<p>My point is not an attempt to convince you that intelligent design is correct—far from it. However, I think that Okham&#8217;s Razor only really comes down on the scientific explanation when you have a good grasp of the elegance and inevitability of natural law. This usually requires a mix of predisposition and extensive study of natural phenomena. In other words, an appeal to parsimony will work on scientists, but not on those who are experientially far from the scientific paradigm.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Will</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-64569</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 04:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-64569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BTW Byron, beautifully put as usual. I think consideration of parsimony is one of the most convincing ways of arguing scientifically. I look forward to future posts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW Byron, beautifully put as usual. I think consideration of parsimony is one of the most convincing ways of arguing scientifically. I look forward to future posts.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Will</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/13/the-argument-from-design/#comment-64448</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=21772#comment-64448</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The evolution of a watch is demonstrated here
http://geopense.blogspot.ca/2010/03/app-evolution-is-blind-watchmaker.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The evolution of a watch is demonstrated here<br />
<a href="http://geopense.blogspot.ca/2010/03/app-evolution-is-blind-watchmaker.html" rel="nofollow">http://geopense.blogspot.ca/2010/03/app-evolution-is-blind-watchmaker.html</a></p>
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