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	<title>Comments on: Is Science Consistent with Evolution?</title>
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	<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on work and life from particle physicists from around the world.</description>
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		<title>By: Colin Donovan</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67838</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Donovan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2012 04:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67838</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;science works, philosophy doesn&#039;t&quot;
Science works if the model works and the equipment works - no, neutrinos probably don&#039;t go faster than light. 

Philosophy works also, at least realism does.  My two year old is as good an epistemologist as any scientist, unless she is imagining a playmate. She wakes up,, affirms reality as different from sleep, affirms her own existence and ego , mine too, and the physical objects around her. She knows she&quot;s loved and she has a concept of justice and other non-material realities, so she is no materialist. But when cetaceans and primates  develop civilizations, art, music, literature, math, science and large hadron colliders , she no doubt will be a materialist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;science works, philosophy doesn&#8217;t&#8221;<br />
Science works if the model works and the equipment works &#8211; no, neutrinos probably don&#8217;t go faster than light. </p>
<p>Philosophy works also, at least realism does.  My two year old is as good an epistemologist as any scientist, unless she is imagining a playmate. She wakes up,, affirms reality as different from sleep, affirms her own existence and ego , mine too, and the physical objects around her. She knows she&#8221;s loved and she has a concept of justice and other non-material realities, so she is no materialist. But when cetaceans and primates  develop civilizations, art, music, literature, math, science and large hadron colliders , she no doubt will be a materialist.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67717</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67717</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read that as the usual science claim - (too much) magic would make science impossible.

Physical laws are an observation, and that they have existed &quot;for eternity&quot; means simply that they have existed (in some form) as long as time has. 

Further, inflation makes an &quot;eternity&quot; mundane, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.5385v1.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Susskind&#039;s recent paper&lt;/a&gt;:

&quot;If a multiversal citizen knows these things he will bet that he is too late to detect any evidence of the root.&quot; 

In other words, a putative beginning is effectively not relevant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read that as the usual science claim &#8211; (too much) magic would make science impossible.</p>
<p>Physical laws are an observation, and that they have existed &#8220;for eternity&#8221; means simply that they have existed (in some form) as long as time has. </p>
<p>Further, inflation makes an &#8220;eternity&#8221; mundane, see <a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.5385v1.pdf" rel="nofollow">Susskind&#8217;s recent paper</a>:</p>
<p>&#8220;If a multiversal citizen knows these things he will bet that he is too late to detect any evidence of the root.&#8221; </p>
<p>In other words, a putative beginning is effectively not relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67716</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This old chestnut again. &lt;a href=&quot;http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/alvin-plantinga-sophisticated-theologian/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Biologists merely observe that species evolve factful enough senses&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;we couldn’t survive if we just stood our ground as a big predator ran towards us and thought, “Well, that might just be an illusion.”&quot;

More generally, science works by similar selection.

Also the rest of the article is based in philosophy instead of science. A few examples:

&quot;Absolute knowledge is impossible,&quot;

Another old chestnut. 

- Noether&#039;s theorem to some small degree relates theories to absolute facts of conservation and symmetries.

- We have robust no go theorems in cases like &quot;no cloning&quot; or &quot;no ftl (or physics crashes)&quot;.

- As Sean Carroll notes, &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/09/23/the-laws-underlying-the-physics-of-everyday-life-are-completely-understood/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Laws Underlying The Physics of Everyday Life Are Completely Understood&lt;/a&gt;&quot;.

- We should probably add that realism is incorporated in all types of mechanics as &quot;constrained reaction to constrained action&quot;, as action-reaction of classical mechanics and observation- observables of quantum mechanics.

The existence of absolutes are of course separate from the existence of uncertainty in observation. Which leads us to this:

&quot;by the Duhem-Quine thesis, no model can be falsified.&quot;

To certify that experiments work and gives repeatable results is part of the process leading up to testing of theories and models. Since we observe that it works often enough, and often enough leads to rejection of theories - which is probably the science equivalent to &quot;falsification&quot; - we can probably reject such a hypothesis in case it can be made formal (doubtful).

In sum, science works, including biology - philosophy doesn&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This old chestnut again. <a href="http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/alvin-plantinga-sophisticated-theologian/" rel="nofollow">Biologists merely observe that species evolve factful enough senses</a>: &#8220;we couldn’t survive if we just stood our ground as a big predator ran towards us and thought, “Well, that might just be an illusion.”&#8221;</p>
<p>More generally, science works by similar selection.</p>
<p>Also the rest of the article is based in philosophy instead of science. A few examples:</p>
<p>&#8220;Absolute knowledge is impossible,&#8221;</p>
<p>Another old chestnut. </p>
<p>- Noether&#8217;s theorem to some small degree relates theories to absolute facts of conservation and symmetries.</p>
<p>- We have robust no go theorems in cases like &#8220;no cloning&#8221; or &#8220;no ftl (or physics crashes)&#8221;.</p>
<p>- As Sean Carroll notes, &#8220;<a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/09/23/the-laws-underlying-the-physics-of-everyday-life-are-completely-understood/" rel="nofollow">The Laws Underlying The Physics of Everyday Life Are Completely Understood</a>&#8220;.</p>
<p>- We should probably add that realism is incorporated in all types of mechanics as &#8220;constrained reaction to constrained action&#8221;, as action-reaction of classical mechanics and observation- observables of quantum mechanics.</p>
<p>The existence of absolutes are of course separate from the existence of uncertainty in observation. Which leads us to this:</p>
<p>&#8220;by the Duhem-Quine thesis, no model can be falsified.&#8221;</p>
<p>To certify that experiments work and gives repeatable results is part of the process leading up to testing of theories and models. Since we observe that it works often enough, and often enough leads to rejection of theories &#8211; which is probably the science equivalent to &#8220;falsification&#8221; &#8211; we can probably reject such a hypothesis in case it can be made formal (doubtful).</p>
<p>In sum, science works, including biology &#8211; philosophy doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: denis</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67595</link>
		<dc:creator>denis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also found this paragraph at least incomplete.
Usually believers agree that the laws exist because god provided them and that is
close to the argument of intelligent design, in the end. god still leaves a few possible
spaces (for believers) where he can act, but the fundamental laws (as everything in the
minds of these people) comes from him. Non-believers are usually blaimed for &quot;believing in the
constancy of the laws. I suspect as what happens if the world were deterministic (what, well,
this is a quantum diary). So, Non-believers are claimed as believers in this reality..
It is true that the constancy of the fundamental laws like the standard model could be discussed,
however, science will still get there...

Anyway, interesting the conclusion.. There is no neutral ground...
Cheers,
Denis]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also found this paragraph at least incomplete.<br />
Usually believers agree that the laws exist because god provided them and that is<br />
close to the argument of intelligent design, in the end. god still leaves a few possible<br />
spaces (for believers) where he can act, but the fundamental laws (as everything in the<br />
minds of these people) comes from him. Non-believers are usually blaimed for &#8220;believing in the<br />
constancy of the laws. I suspect as what happens if the world were deterministic (what, well,<br />
this is a quantum diary). So, Non-believers are claimed as believers in this reality..<br />
It is true that the constancy of the fundamental laws like the standard model could be discussed,<br />
however, science will still get there&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyway, interesting the conclusion.. There is no neutral ground&#8230;<br />
Cheers,<br />
Denis</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Will</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67566</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The question of whether or not a computer could emulate a brain is, in the final analysis, an empirical question.&quot;

I&#039;m always amazed by the lack of agreement with this seemingly obvious (in the light of modern neurology &amp; technology) statement. I&#039;ve had people throw Descartes at me as if he was a current professor somewhere.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The question of whether or not a computer could emulate a brain is, in the final analysis, an empirical question.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m always amazed by the lack of agreement with this seemingly obvious (in the light of modern neurology &amp; technology) statement. I&#8217;ve had people throw Descartes at me as if he was a current professor somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Byron</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67540</link>
		<dc:creator>Byron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67540</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sound like an argument that Mathematica cannot do math since it is based on the physical mechanisms in the computer. The foundations of math are rather different that science but I think the counter argument is the same. There are no grand metaphysical principles like &lt;strong&gt;TRUTH &lt;/strong&gt; and yes everything, for a materialist, can be reduced to a question of statements about the configuration of the physical brain. That is not a problem any more than it is a problem that pictures are painted with paint not reality. Similarly, the physical mechanism (or the not physical mechanism if it is spirit) underlying our thoughts are largely disconnected from the thoughts themselves. The question of whether or not a computer could emulate a brain is, in the final analysis, an empirical question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sound like an argument that Mathematica cannot do math since it is based on the physical mechanisms in the computer. The foundations of math are rather different that science but I think the counter argument is the same. There are no grand metaphysical principles like <strong>TRUTH </strong> and yes everything, for a materialist, can be reduced to a question of statements about the configuration of the physical brain. That is not a problem any more than it is a problem that pictures are painted with paint not reality. Similarly, the physical mechanism (or the not physical mechanism if it is spirit) underlying our thoughts are largely disconnected from the thoughts themselves. The question of whether or not a computer could emulate a brain is, in the final analysis, an empirical question.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67536</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 02:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Even if there is a god, HOW is one a captain?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if there is a god, HOW is one a captain?</p>
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		<title>By: jotes</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67525</link>
		<dc:creator>jotes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 00:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67525</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As far as I can understand the Plantinga argument goes deeper. I know it under the name of &quot;Haldane argument&quot;. There is a kind of self-contradiction in the materialism. If everything can be reduced to laws of physics and chemistry, than our statements &quot;this is true&quot; &quot;I agree with your argument&quot; etc can be reduced to physics and biology of our brains. My statement: &quot;you are right&quot; tells only about a configuration of atoms in my brain and not about a proof of a Pythagoras theorem (if this was a subject of our conversation). The same intuition is behind Dostoevsky question: &quot;If there is no god, then how am I a captain?&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as I can understand the Plantinga argument goes deeper. I know it under the name of &#8220;Haldane argument&#8221;. There is a kind of self-contradiction in the materialism. If everything can be reduced to laws of physics and chemistry, than our statements &#8220;this is true&#8221; &#8220;I agree with your argument&#8221; etc can be reduced to physics and biology of our brains. My statement: &#8220;you are right&#8221; tells only about a configuration of atoms in my brain and not about a proof of a Pythagoras theorem (if this was a subject of our conversation). The same intuition is behind Dostoevsky question: &#8220;If there is no god, then how am I a captain?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Md Santo</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67490</link>
		<dc:creator>Md Santo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2012 12:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67490</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Evolution + Creationism = Nature Knowledge Continuum = most likely Future Science :

•	Cited from “Knowledge is the Edge of Science” - http://bit.ly/pOSGBt and derived from Nature Knowledge Theory (NKT), Science consistent with  Evolution considering both of them are within domain of Scientific Knowledge. But, Science not consistent with Creationism considering the last is within “Knowledgeable Science”, a term applied for domain where Knowledge becoming subject, alive and having consciousness contrary with Science which is just an object with no consciousness.

•	But, viewed from NKT, the most important is, both Science (representing Data and Information) and Knowledge (representing also Wisdom) are within Nature Knowledge continuum. The paradigm used here is : “The Universe or the Nature Knowledge is the source and center of Consciousness” rather than “Mind Brain or Human Being is the source and center of Consciousness as derived from DIKW model”

•	In this circumstance we tend to use the first paradigm, considering by using it, we able to reconstruct the epistemology as well as ontology of current Universe up to time of  Big Bang through Top-Down mechanism approach by Inverted Paradigm Method or “Reverse engineering” applied to “Universe Trilogy” a term we coined to Nature Knowledge, Energy and Matter as an entity of fabrics of the Universe

•	Brief overview ref of this short narration at http://mobeeknowledge.ning.com/forum/topics/comprehensive-guide-to-future-science-environment-decomposing-kno    - (“Comprehensive Guide to Future Science Environment : Decomposing Knowledge with Inverted Paradigm Method”)

•	Note on one of our statement : .... ......k – constant  approaches 0.0 such as the ecosystem of Higgs Boson, will make all scientific efforts practically a “mission impossible” .  We dare to say, almost impossible to any scientific effort goes beyond “our illusion dream land” with “k” = 1.0 to leap into “absolute dream land” with “k” less than 1.0 or practically = 0.0  considering that “…... space-time is only the notion of  human being in the universe to accommodate the existence of Matter and Energy.....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evolution + Creationism = Nature Knowledge Continuum = most likely Future Science :</p>
<p>•	Cited from “Knowledge is the Edge of Science” &#8211; <a href="http://bit.ly/pOSGBt" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/pOSGBt</a> and derived from Nature Knowledge Theory (NKT), Science consistent with  Evolution considering both of them are within domain of Scientific Knowledge. But, Science not consistent with Creationism considering the last is within “Knowledgeable Science”, a term applied for domain where Knowledge becoming subject, alive and having consciousness contrary with Science which is just an object with no consciousness.</p>
<p>•	But, viewed from NKT, the most important is, both Science (representing Data and Information) and Knowledge (representing also Wisdom) are within Nature Knowledge continuum. The paradigm used here is : “The Universe or the Nature Knowledge is the source and center of Consciousness” rather than “Mind Brain or Human Being is the source and center of Consciousness as derived from DIKW model”</p>
<p>•	In this circumstance we tend to use the first paradigm, considering by using it, we able to reconstruct the epistemology as well as ontology of current Universe up to time of  Big Bang through Top-Down mechanism approach by Inverted Paradigm Method or “Reverse engineering” applied to “Universe Trilogy” a term we coined to Nature Knowledge, Energy and Matter as an entity of fabrics of the Universe</p>
<p>•	Brief overview ref of this short narration at <a href="http://mobeeknowledge.ning.com/forum/topics/comprehensive-guide-to-future-science-environment-decomposing-kno" rel="nofollow">http://mobeeknowledge.ning.com/forum/topics/comprehensive-guide-to-future-science-environment-decomposing-kno</a>    &#8211; (“Comprehensive Guide to Future Science Environment : Decomposing Knowledge with Inverted Paradigm Method”)</p>
<p>•	Note on one of our statement : &#8230;. &#8230;&#8230;k – constant  approaches 0.0 such as the ecosystem of Higgs Boson, will make all scientific efforts practically a “mission impossible” .  We dare to say, almost impossible to any scientific effort goes beyond “our illusion dream land” with “k” = 1.0 to leap into “absolute dream land” with “k” less than 1.0 or practically = 0.0  considering that “…&#8230; space-time is only the notion of  human being in the universe to accommodate the existence of Matter and Energy&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Will</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67488</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2012 12:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67488</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Darwin was personally tormented by evolution. Planck spent years trying to save classical mechanics (some say he even succeeded). Evidence and philosophy should be the horse and cart respectively. Gleeful enthusiasm for a theory should arouse suspicion. This is a good heuristic for sifting theories, less powerful than parsimony yes, but still a good one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darwin was personally tormented by evolution. Planck spent years trying to save classical mechanics (some say he even succeeded). Evidence and philosophy should be the horse and cart respectively. Gleeful enthusiasm for a theory should arouse suspicion. This is a good heuristic for sifting theories, less powerful than parsimony yes, but still a good one.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67414</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2012 04:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting statement in the beginning of the 3rd paragraph:

&quot;unbelievers argue the opposite; the existence of a God means science is impossible since he/she/it could override the rules of nature at will and there would be no reason to assume constant laws&quot;

So the unbelievers think even though God may not exist, the physical laws must exist? So they believe physical laws have existed for eternity?

Once again, we see that there is no neutral ground in matters of belief.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting statement in the beginning of the 3rd paragraph:</p>
<p>&#8220;unbelievers argue the opposite; the existence of a God means science is impossible since he/she/it could override the rules of nature at will and there would be no reason to assume constant laws&#8221;</p>
<p>So the unbelievers think even though God may not exist, the physical laws must exist? So they believe physical laws have existed for eternity?</p>
<p>Once again, we see that there is no neutral ground in matters of belief.</p>
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		<title>By: chrisanto</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/04/27/is-science-consistent-with-evolution/#comment-67389</link>
		<dc:creator>chrisanto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2012 01:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22107#comment-67389</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Plantinga&#039;s argument suffers from one vital flaw: evolution is not &quot;unguided&quot;, simply it is that it is not guided by a supreme intelligence. It is however, guided by the fundamental law of survival of the &quot;fittest&quot;, meaning the best adapted for that environment. Thus creatures that have evolved the faculties to enable rational enquiry, especially in the realm of the laws of nature, come equipped with a brain that has been very good for tens of millions of years for avoiding fast moving predators at awkward angles, catching falling fruit, jumping from trees, extrapolating consequences of mechanical action on the environment. Thus in a way you can say our brains are well adapted to understanding classical mechanics, because classical mechanics is what happens! Just so our eyes are adapted well to visible light, because that it the predominant and most useful wavelength range to our survival (we don&#039;t pollinate flowers so have no need of UV, and nature would have a hard time and even less reason to develop x- or gamma-ray eyes). 
Thus his argument should really be whether we can trust our faculties within the realm of philosophy and metaphysics: how can we trust religious beliefs? I would say there is all the most reason to trust our ability to extrapolate physical data from our senses and by of course, consensus. Plantinga&#039;s &#039;dream world&#039; would require a remarkably improbable permutation of everyone coming to the same wrong conclusions about physical reality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plantinga&#8217;s argument suffers from one vital flaw: evolution is not &#8220;unguided&#8221;, simply it is that it is not guided by a supreme intelligence. It is however, guided by the fundamental law of survival of the &#8220;fittest&#8221;, meaning the best adapted for that environment. Thus creatures that have evolved the faculties to enable rational enquiry, especially in the realm of the laws of nature, come equipped with a brain that has been very good for tens of millions of years for avoiding fast moving predators at awkward angles, catching falling fruit, jumping from trees, extrapolating consequences of mechanical action on the environment. Thus in a way you can say our brains are well adapted to understanding classical mechanics, because classical mechanics is what happens! Just so our eyes are adapted well to visible light, because that it the predominant and most useful wavelength range to our survival (we don&#8217;t pollinate flowers so have no need of UV, and nature would have a hard time and even less reason to develop x- or gamma-ray eyes).<br />
Thus his argument should really be whether we can trust our faculties within the realm of philosophy and metaphysics: how can we trust religious beliefs? I would say there is all the most reason to trust our ability to extrapolate physical data from our senses and by of course, consensus. Plantinga&#8217;s &#8216;dream world&#8217; would require a remarkably improbable permutation of everyone coming to the same wrong conclusions about physical reality.</p>
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