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	<title>Comments on: Neutrino 2012: Day 5 Part 1: The Return of the FTL Neutrino</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/08/neutrino-2012-day-5-pt-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/08/neutrino-2012-day-5-pt-1/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on work and life from particle physicists from around the world.</description>
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		<title>By: Christophe</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/08/neutrino-2012-day-5-pt-1/#comment-86548</link>
		<dc:creator>Christophe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22910#comment-86548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A problem of logic !

It is a necessity that for permitting oscillations between the three neutrinos, at least two of the three kinds of neutrinos must have a mass and not the same. One kind of neutrinos could have a zero rest mass. Only the three differences between two masses of the three kind of neutrinos are relevant in the oscillation phenomena. These differences must be non vanishing.

The logical contradiction lies in the necessity of at least two (and perhaps three) different masses AND the asserted observed velocity c of neutrinos.
 
On a logical point of view, it is impossible to simultaneously maintain that all neutrinos have a mass AND that neutrinos travel at velocity c. It is the same situation with the muons and with every other massive particles. Having a definite rest mass, as small as it is, they can not exactly travel at the velocity c. Even if the rest mass of neutrinos is very very low, at a velocity very very near of c, it would be big enough, or even huge enough, to be detected and measured, as mass increases with velocity, and sharply near c, according to the Einstein&#039;s equation relating mass and velocity. It would become infinite at the velocity c, what is impossible.

In the case of the massless photon travelling at velocity c, the same equation gives 0 / 0, what is an undefined quantity..., not necessary nil, i.e. one can only say that the &quot;mass&quot; of the travelling photon is undefined, even if its rest mass is nil (One assumes that its mass continues to be nil). But, on the opposite, who knows what could be a resting photon ?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A problem of logic !</p>
<p>It is a necessity that for permitting oscillations between the three neutrinos, at least two of the three kinds of neutrinos must have a mass and not the same. One kind of neutrinos could have a zero rest mass. Only the three differences between two masses of the three kind of neutrinos are relevant in the oscillation phenomena. These differences must be non vanishing.</p>
<p>The logical contradiction lies in the necessity of at least two (and perhaps three) different masses AND the asserted observed velocity c of neutrinos.</p>
<p>On a logical point of view, it is impossible to simultaneously maintain that all neutrinos have a mass AND that neutrinos travel at velocity c. It is the same situation with the muons and with every other massive particles. Having a definite rest mass, as small as it is, they can not exactly travel at the velocity c. Even if the rest mass of neutrinos is very very low, at a velocity very very near of c, it would be big enough, or even huge enough, to be detected and measured, as mass increases with velocity, and sharply near c, according to the Einstein&#8217;s equation relating mass and velocity. It would become infinite at the velocity c, what is impossible.</p>
<p>In the case of the massless photon travelling at velocity c, the same equation gives 0 / 0, what is an undefined quantity&#8230;, not necessary nil, i.e. one can only say that the &#8220;mass&#8221; of the travelling photon is undefined, even if its rest mass is nil (One assumes that its mass continues to be nil). But, on the opposite, who knows what could be a resting photon ?</p>
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		<title>By: fluidic</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/08/neutrino-2012-day-5-pt-1/#comment-73722</link>
		<dc:creator>fluidic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22910#comment-73722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Richard: Thank you goes for all those experiments who put efforts to verify observed data and state a preliminary conclusion to neutrino speed at least temporarily.

Nevertheless, I am one of those who are 99,999% certain that depending on neutrino generation conditions, there are classes of neutrinos that will travel faster than c.

good enough for now.
fluidic]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard: Thank you goes for all those experiments who put efforts to verify observed data and state a preliminary conclusion to neutrino speed at least temporarily.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I am one of those who are 99,999% certain that depending on neutrino generation conditions, there are classes of neutrinos that will travel faster than c.</p>
<p>good enough for now.<br />
fluidic</p>
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		<title>By: Navneeth</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/08/neutrino-2012-day-5-pt-1/#comment-72047</link>
		<dc:creator>Navneeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2012 18:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22910#comment-72047</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your reply.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your reply.</p>
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		<title>By: christophe nicolas</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/08/neutrino-2012-day-5-pt-1/#comment-72004</link>
		<dc:creator>christophe nicolas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2012 13:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22910#comment-72004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello, 
Congratulations to the researchers and their precision work on all experiments. 
Can you give me the energy levels. Is this the same as for previous experiments? 
Tops departures were they doing in the same conditions? 
Thank you in advance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,<br />
Congratulations to the researchers and their precision work on all experiments.<br />
Can you give me the energy levels. Is this the same as for previous experiments?<br />
Tops departures were they doing in the same conditions?<br />
Thank you in advance.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Ruiz</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/08/neutrino-2012-day-5-pt-1/#comment-71879</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Ruiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2012 01:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22910#comment-71879</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Naveenth, great eye! This all comes down to experimental uncertainty. In short, the neutrino mass is smaller than we can resolve with our present-day detectors. Knowing the energy of the neutrino beam and measuring their speed, then we can solve for their mass. Unfortunately, doing this gives us something close to zero with an experimental uncertainty much larger than this difference. He hope to have such high precision with future experiments but for the time being we have to be satisfied with knowing that they have a very, very small mass. Similarly, in collider experiments like the Large Hadron Collider. We just assume for simplicity that all neutrinos are massless since their masses are over 1000000000000 (that should be 12 zeros) times smaller than everything we do at the LHC. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Naveenth, great eye! This all comes down to experimental uncertainty. In short, the neutrino mass is smaller than we can resolve with our present-day detectors. Knowing the energy of the neutrino beam and measuring their speed, then we can solve for their mass. Unfortunately, doing this gives us something close to zero with an experimental uncertainty much larger than this difference. He hope to have such high precision with future experiments but for the time being we have to be satisfied with knowing that they have a very, very small mass. Similarly, in collider experiments like the Large Hadron Collider. We just assume for simplicity that all neutrinos are massless since their masses are over 1000000000000 (that should be 12 zeros) times smaller than everything we do at the LHC. <img src='http://www.quantumdiaries.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Navneeth</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/08/neutrino-2012-day-5-pt-1/#comment-71816</link>
		<dc:creator>Navneeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 18:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=22910#comment-71816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How does this -- that they travel at the speed of light -- corroborate with the inference that neutrinos have non-zero mass, based on observations of their oscillations?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does this &#8212; that they travel at the speed of light &#8212; corroborate with the inference that neutrinos have non-zero mass, based on observations of their oscillations?</p>
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