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	<title>Comments on: How to tell a Higgs from another boson?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on work and life from particle physicists from around the world.</description>
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		<title>By: Tin</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-96296</link>
		<dc:creator>Tin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2012 12:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-96296</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why do you refer to Aidan Randle-Conde blog when it is both wrong and misleading, as Frank Close has pointed out in the comments of that blog entry?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you refer to Aidan Randle-Conde blog when it is both wrong and misleading, as Frank Close has pointed out in the comments of that blog entry?</p>
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		<title>By: Ilya Kuryakin</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-90645</link>
		<dc:creator>Ilya Kuryakin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2012 00:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-90645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I refer to the earlier explanation regarding measurement of the angle between decay photons. As the photons are emitted simultaneously, there would be a coincidence requirement, so that only correlated photons are accepted. I presume that energy gating is also used. Similarly for other decay modes (WW, ZZ).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I refer to the earlier explanation regarding measurement of the angle between decay photons. As the photons are emitted simultaneously, there would be a coincidence requirement, so that only correlated photons are accepted. I presume that energy gating is also used. Similarly for other decay modes (WW, ZZ).</p>
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		<title>By: Valery</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-90602</link>
		<dc:creator>Valery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2012 14:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-90602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For anyone who is interested - Comay provided an explanation why the decay channels of W,Z and the new particle support his approach that they are mesons of top quarks.

I do not have the tools to understand everything he says. Physicists can read about it here: http://nohiggs.wordpress.com/2012/10/09/why-top-quark-mesons-must-exist/#comment-1789]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For anyone who is interested &#8211; Comay provided an explanation why the decay channels of W,Z and the new particle support his approach that they are mesons of top quarks.</p>
<p>I do not have the tools to understand everything he says. Physicists can read about it here: <a href="http://nohiggs.wordpress.com/2012/10/09/why-top-quark-mesons-must-exist/#comment-1789" rel="nofollow">http://nohiggs.wordpress.com/2012/10/09/why-top-quark-mesons-must-exist/#comment-1789</a></p>
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		<title>By: Valery</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-90508</link>
		<dc:creator>Valery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-90508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Pauline

I see that you prefer not to publish my previous comment. Can you edit the text in my comment? If it is possible, please change from:
&quot;particle physicists do not have answers – all they have is a set of excuses&quot;
to:
&quot;there are no answers&quot;

and publish it?

Thank you. I am following Comay&#039;s blog for several months and I do not understand why no one answers his questions. Matt Strassler wrote that he is silly and stupid. You wrote that you do not trust him. And according to his blog he solved in the past a problem that was open for 30 years (a paradox called &quot;the hidden momentum&quot; or something like that). I think that he deserves better &quot;treatment&quot; from the community. Instead of saying that he doesn&#039;t understand physics, people in the community should answer his claims, using scientific arguments.

That&#039;s what I think.

In the meantime, I posted a question in his blog about your comment regarding the decay channels of W,Z.


Valery]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Pauline</p>
<p>I see that you prefer not to publish my previous comment. Can you edit the text in my comment? If it is possible, please change from:<br />
&#8220;particle physicists do not have answers – all they have is a set of excuses&#8221;<br />
to:<br />
&#8220;there are no answers&#8221;</p>
<p>and publish it?</p>
<p>Thank you. I am following Comay&#8217;s blog for several months and I do not understand why no one answers his questions. Matt Strassler wrote that he is silly and stupid. You wrote that you do not trust him. And according to his blog he solved in the past a problem that was open for 30 years (a paradox called &#8220;the hidden momentum&#8221; or something like that). I think that he deserves better &#8220;treatment&#8221; from the community. Instead of saying that he doesn&#8217;t understand physics, people in the community should answer his claims, using scientific arguments.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what I think.</p>
<p>In the meantime, I posted a question in his blog about your comment regarding the decay channels of W,Z.</p>
<p>Valery</p>
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		<title>By: Valery</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-90499</link>
		<dc:creator>Valery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-90499</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you. I read Comay&#039;s blog carefully and my impression is different.

Eliyahu Comay is a physicist since the 1960s and he has many publications. One of the most recent publication is about the W boson equations. The blog (which is written by his son) says that Comay proved that the equations show that W is not elementary.

In his blog Comay claimed that top quark mesons exist and in Matt Strassler blog he mentioned his claims. Matt Strassler said that he doesn&#039;t have time to answer (he said he has better things to do). So my conclusion, for now, is there are no answers - all they have is a set of excuses. I hope that someone in CERN would answer to the specific points that were raised in Comay&#039;s son blog blog or in Comay&#039;s article and change my feeling about the whole thing...

All the best

Valery]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you. I read Comay&#8217;s blog carefully and my impression is different.</p>
<p>Eliyahu Comay is a physicist since the 1960s and he has many publications. One of the most recent publication is about the W boson equations. The blog (which is written by his son) says that Comay proved that the equations show that W is not elementary.</p>
<p>In his blog Comay claimed that top quark mesons exist and in Matt Strassler blog he mentioned his claims. Matt Strassler said that he doesn&#8217;t have time to answer (he said he has better things to do). So my conclusion, for now, is there are no answers &#8211; all they have is a set of excuses. I hope that someone in CERN would answer to the specific points that were raised in Comay&#8217;s son blog blog or in Comay&#8217;s article and change my feeling about the whole thing&#8230;</p>
<p>All the best</p>
<p>Valery</p>
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		<title>By: CERN</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-90496</link>
		<dc:creator>CERN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 08:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-90496</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello again, Valery,

   I am no expert on the matter but I completely trust the judgement of Matt Strassler, a very reputed theorist from Rutgers University. In his blog, he answers the arguments brought by Mr. Conway. See http://profmattstrassler.com/new-start-here/  and search for &quot;Larsen&quot;. As I said before, it is believed that top mesons decay too fast to have time to form a bound state. And everything measured so far for the top quark, and the W, Z and new bosons are in agreement with the SM predictions. So I am happy to go with that. 

I read the blog from Conway. All I can say is: I am always suspicious of people claiming to have the answers to everything and claiming that everybody else is wrong. If his arguments were sound and published in scientific journals, other theorists would have listened or cross-checked his claims. If he cannot convince anybody, it is probably that his arguments are faulty as Matt Strassler argues. He simply claims the top quark lives long enough when all evidence points to the contrary. To me, all this sounds like a &quot;conspiration theory&quot; attitude, stating that the whole scientific community somehow has an agreement to hide something. I know this is not the way it works. Usually, people state their arguments and it progresses from there.

I hope this will help you form your own opinion.

Cheers, Pauline]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello again, Valery,</p>
<p>   I am no expert on the matter but I completely trust the judgement of Matt Strassler, a very reputed theorist from Rutgers University. In his blog, he answers the arguments brought by Mr. Conway. See <a href="http://profmattstrassler.com/new-start-here/" rel="nofollow">http://profmattstrassler.com/new-start-here/</a>  and search for &#8220;Larsen&#8221;. As I said before, it is believed that top mesons decay too fast to have time to form a bound state. And everything measured so far for the top quark, and the W, Z and new bosons are in agreement with the SM predictions. So I am happy to go with that. </p>
<p>I read the blog from Conway. All I can say is: I am always suspicious of people claiming to have the answers to everything and claiming that everybody else is wrong. If his arguments were sound and published in scientific journals, other theorists would have listened or cross-checked his claims. If he cannot convince anybody, it is probably that his arguments are faulty as Matt Strassler argues. He simply claims the top quark lives long enough when all evidence points to the contrary. To me, all this sounds like a &#8220;conspiration theory&#8221; attitude, stating that the whole scientific community somehow has an agreement to hide something. I know this is not the way it works. Usually, people state their arguments and it progresses from there.</p>
<p>I hope this will help you form your own opinion.</p>
<p>Cheers, Pauline</p>
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		<title>By: Valery</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-90491</link>
		<dc:creator>Valery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 07:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-90491</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you Pauline. Can you read the first argument+answer of the link below, and tell me what is the author&#039;s mistake? He claims that this is a proof that top quark mesons must exist. Thanks!
http://nohiggs.wordpress.com/2012/10/09/why-top-quark-mesons-must-exist/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Pauline. Can you read the first argument+answer of the link below, and tell me what is the author&#8217;s mistake? He claims that this is a proof that top quark mesons must exist. Thanks!<br />
<a href="http://nohiggs.wordpress.com/2012/10/09/why-top-quark-mesons-must-exist/" rel="nofollow">http://nohiggs.wordpress.com/2012/10/09/why-top-quark-mesons-must-exist/</a></p>
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		<title>By: CERN</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-90485</link>
		<dc:creator>CERN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 06:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-90485</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello Valery,

 I am afraid the author of the article you read was misinformed. First of all, top quarks are not expected to form bound states. Second, such a particle would have specific decay modes, incompatible with the decay modes observed for the new boson and for the W and Z bosons. 

Cheers, Pauline]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Valery,</p>
<p> I am afraid the author of the article you read was misinformed. First of all, top quarks are not expected to form bound states. Second, such a particle would have specific decay modes, incompatible with the decay modes observed for the new boson and for the W and Z bosons. </p>
<p>Cheers, Pauline</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Valery</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-90442</link>
		<dc:creator>Valery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-90442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read an article that claims that the top quark mesons should appear in the CERN data. The claim is that although the mean life time of the top quark is less than 10^-24, the time required to create a meson is nearly 10^-24 and many top quarks should leave enough time to create such meson.

What do you think about this argument? The article continued and claimed that it is possible that the new particle is a top meson (consists of top and top-bar). It says further and claims that W,Z are top mesons as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read an article that claims that the top quark mesons should appear in the CERN data. The claim is that although the mean life time of the top quark is less than 10^-24, the time required to create a meson is nearly 10^-24 and many top quarks should leave enough time to create such meson.</p>
<p>What do you think about this argument? The article continued and claimed that it is possible that the new particle is a top meson (consists of top and top-bar). It says further and claims that W,Z are top mesons as well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: CERN</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-89110</link>
		<dc:creator>CERN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 09:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-89110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello,

  in fact, after careful cross-checks by other experiments and by the OPERA experiment itself, it turned out to be an experimental error. Neutrinos have a speed inferior to the the speed of light.

  Regarding the experiment in the Creighton Mine in Minnesota that you refer to, what was measured there was not the speed of the neutrinos but their number. Ray Davis measured that only a third of the neutrinos produced by the sun reached the Earth. The reason was that the electron neutrinos produced on the sun can change into other types of neutrinos on their way to Earth. The cleaning product used to detect them contained chlorine and it only reacts to electron neutrinos. To test this hypothesis, another experiment was built in Sudbury in Northern Ontario in Canada in the Inco Mine. There, they used heavy water, a substance that was sensitive to all types of neutrinos (electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos and tau neutrinos). They were able to show that the sum of the three types of neutrinos corresponded to the number of electron neutrinos produced on the sun. So this was a different problem.

  This other experiment implies that neutrino have masses. This allows them to mix into each other. Since they have mass, they should travel at less than the speed of light. This is also now proven after redoing this experiment in Italy with different detectors.

  I hope this helps, Pauline]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,</p>
<p>  in fact, after careful cross-checks by other experiments and by the OPERA experiment itself, it turned out to be an experimental error. Neutrinos have a speed inferior to the the speed of light.</p>
<p>  Regarding the experiment in the Creighton Mine in Minnesota that you refer to, what was measured there was not the speed of the neutrinos but their number. Ray Davis measured that only a third of the neutrinos produced by the sun reached the Earth. The reason was that the electron neutrinos produced on the sun can change into other types of neutrinos on their way to Earth. The cleaning product used to detect them contained chlorine and it only reacts to electron neutrinos. To test this hypothesis, another experiment was built in Sudbury in Northern Ontario in Canada in the Inco Mine. There, they used heavy water, a substance that was sensitive to all types of neutrinos (electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos and tau neutrinos). They were able to show that the sum of the three types of neutrinos corresponded to the number of electron neutrinos produced on the sun. So this was a different problem.</p>
<p>  This other experiment implies that neutrino have masses. This allows them to mix into each other. Since they have mass, they should travel at less than the speed of light. This is also now proven after redoing this experiment in Italy with different detectors.</p>
<p>  I hope this helps, Pauline</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: CERN</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-89104</link>
		<dc:creator>CERN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 09:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-89104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello Reza,

  in the detector, we can see the two photons clearly. All that is needed then is to measure the angle between them like one measure any angle. Have a look at some of the event displays for Higgs bosons decaying into two photons taken by the ATLAS experiment: https://twiki.cern.ch/twiki/bin/view/AtlasPublic/EventDisplaysFromHiggsSearches#H

Cheers, Pauline]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Reza,</p>
<p>  in the detector, we can see the two photons clearly. All that is needed then is to measure the angle between them like one measure any angle. Have a look at some of the event displays for Higgs bosons decaying into two photons taken by the ATLAS experiment: <a href="https://twiki.cern.ch/twiki/bin/view/AtlasPublic/EventDisplaysFromHiggsSearches#H" rel="nofollow">https://twiki.cern.ch/twiki/bin/view/AtlasPublic/EventDisplaysFromHiggsSearches#H</a></p>
<p>Cheers, Pauline</p>
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		<title>By: Reza Bokat</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-89063</link>
		<dc:creator>Reza Bokat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 22:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-89063</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How can we measure the angle between photons?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can we measure the angle between photons?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Denis</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-88985</link>
		<dc:creator>Denis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 08:22:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-88985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt; if a boson can have the same quantum state as another boson–same place, same spin, etc., at the same time, then how can it EXIST, in the sense of being a thing which is not another thing?

Two bosons in the same quantum state are indeed indistinguishable. However, there are still *two* bosons there.

For example, in the future one of them can leave this state, while other can stay: say, two photons in the same quantum state enter a slice of some material, one is absorbed but other isn&#039;t. Clearly, for that to be possible, there have to be two particles: it&#039;s impossible to absorb a half of a particle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; if a boson can have the same quantum state as another boson–same place, same spin, etc., at the same time, then how can it EXIST, in the sense of being a thing which is not another thing?</p>
<p>Two bosons in the same quantum state are indeed indistinguishable. However, there are still *two* bosons there.</p>
<p>For example, in the future one of them can leave this state, while other can stay: say, two photons in the same quantum state enter a slice of some material, one is absorbed but other isn&#8217;t. Clearly, for that to be possible, there have to be two particles: it&#8217;s impossible to absorb a half of a particle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: thefisherman22</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-88916</link>
		<dc:creator>thefisherman22</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 21:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-88916</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding nutrinos, the expirament sending nitrions from CERN to the Italian lab beating the speed og light. As nutrinos are never seen perhaps they do travel faster than light!
Reaserch in the USA when nutrinos were collected underground in a form of detergent may also support the assumption, that they do travel faster than light]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding nutrinos, the expirament sending nitrions from CERN to the Italian lab beating the speed og light. As nutrinos are never seen perhaps they do travel faster than light!<br />
Reaserch in the USA when nutrinos were collected underground in a form of detergent may also support the assumption, that they do travel faster than light</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: CERN</title>
		<link>http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/20/how-to-tell-a-higgs-from-another-boson/#comment-88361</link>
		<dc:creator>CERN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quantumdiaries.org/?p=26078#comment-88361</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry for the late reply, I had missed your comment. Your friend seems to confuse a few things (or I am not getting his point right). Think of any particle. Let&#039;s take photons, which are also bosons. They all have the same value of spin (which is 1). There are tons of photons but you won&#039;t all find them at the same place and at the same time.

Same for the Higgs boson. All Higgs bosons will have the same characteristics (spin 0, same mass (125 GeV if what we found is the Higgs boson), parity +, etc). It will also decay in very specific ways, each way having a given rate. 

Bosons are different from fermions (particles of matter with half spins like the electrons or quarks) in that they obey different statistical rules. Fermions cannot exit in the same quantum state. This is why one only finds 2 electrons (one with spin up, one with spin down) per atomic level as we learned in high school chemistry. This is why larger atoms with many electrons have many levels and many sub-levels, each one with at most 2 electrons.

Now bosons can all exist in the same quantum state. You can put as many boson as you want in one given quantum state. True, they become absolutely indistinguishable. I suspect that unlike humans, they do not care about loosing their identity.

Cheers, Pauline]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the late reply, I had missed your comment. Your friend seems to confuse a few things (or I am not getting his point right). Think of any particle. Let&#8217;s take photons, which are also bosons. They all have the same value of spin (which is 1). There are tons of photons but you won&#8217;t all find them at the same place and at the same time.</p>
<p>Same for the Higgs boson. All Higgs bosons will have the same characteristics (spin 0, same mass (125 GeV if what we found is the Higgs boson), parity +, etc). It will also decay in very specific ways, each way having a given rate. </p>
<p>Bosons are different from fermions (particles of matter with half spins like the electrons or quarks) in that they obey different statistical rules. Fermions cannot exit in the same quantum state. This is why one only finds 2 electrons (one with spin up, one with spin down) per atomic level as we learned in high school chemistry. This is why larger atoms with many electrons have many levels and many sub-levels, each one with at most 2 electrons.</p>
<p>Now bosons can all exist in the same quantum state. You can put as many boson as you want in one given quantum state. True, they become absolutely indistinguishable. I suspect that unlike humans, they do not care about loosing their identity.</p>
<p>Cheers, Pauline</p>
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